I've just watched body of lies (Leonardo di Caprio) which is consistent with most stories i ve watched such as rendition. It strikes me an awe. It is not that i don't know that there has been tension between the US and most muslims, but i can't picture it that well before i watched these movies. The best quotes i got from body of lies "Nobody is innocent in this business of wars". It is true. No matter which side of the war you choose to stand on, both are guilty, either standing for the American or the alleged muslims terrorist.
If i am to make an inventory of wars (big one) in the history up to the present date, then i can point to Catholicism and Islam as the primary defendant on the war history. The great Cross war between the crusaders and the jihadist, the story of king arthur war and the muslims. Israel-Palestine and much more.
I was a christian, i studied bible (i dont claim to be an expert). I do understand in both Al-Quran and Holy Bible (both are derived from almost the same text), there was a message of an angry god (not capitalized because i dont believe in it, or in any event, he is a flawed god). he is a god of war. Holy Bible especially described in details how vengeful, jealous and power showy he is. Sodom and Gomora and the 10 curses he granted for the Egytians are the clear example of this angry god. I never see any virtue of god in the bible, or even if there is one, his anger and vengeful actions far exceeds his virtue.
This, if not the core of the Holy Bible and Al-Quran teaching, gives room to misinterpretation. Look at ourselves right now (Isreael-Palestine) US (Cristian) to Musliims sentiment. Where did it come from? I understand both have appealing arguments for justifying its actions. In rendition movie, the agent of jihadists once argued that we have no idea the oppression they suffered for centuries, living under the ceiling of fear and persecution, discriminated and jailed simply because of their race, name or colors (random check and therefore forceful rendition to guantnamo). The argument of the US is also appealing. They argued that "do not throw the blame to our face, we did this so that you can wake up in your bed in London or Paris safely in the morning and not to worry of the safety of your family, children or relatives, so stop complaining and let us do our job"
This world is probably much better off without you both. Your indoctrination if not repugnant, is unbelievably uncivilized. I can start understanding what Sigmund Freud has been so discontent about during his course of life ("civilization and its discontent")
Muslims killed their own kinds in the name of Allah and worse of all they think they will go to heaven (martyr). US on one side think they have the police power to standardized value in the world. Side note: they also impose unfair environmental value to developing states now after they caused of this mess to global warming thanks to their industrialization era in 18th century.
Really, we dont need you to tell us that we should fight (in war) each other, human is born with innate sense of war already. Thanks to your contribution to our mankind!!
"those to whom evil is done, do evil in return"
Penuh emosi sekali ya Jo, lo nulisny penuh antusiasme seperti Harjo yang gw kenal. Walau gw banyak ga setujunya ama pendapat lo, tapi tulisan lo sangat berbobot, dan gw bisa liat sudut pandang lain terutama dari Expert,,,
ReplyDeletehahaha...
thanks man
ReplyDeleteNice to read this article...
ReplyDeletereally.. >.<
I've made a plan to make article in this same theme as you did...
Once read this, I got curious on what film you watch till you get his theme. I wonder to make the same-themed article after watching "The Kingdom of Heaven." Almost all the same as what you've stated in your article...
both crusaders and jihadist stated fighting by stating "God wills it" which in fact it should come to "They will it, not God, not even Qu'ran nor Bible."
What is the title of the film you've watched? Thank you... Nice article... really >.<
thank you for that nice compliment. I dont get that a lot for my view. several of most movies i watched are body of lies (leonardo di caprio) and rendition
ReplyDeleteI saw your blog from indodebaters...
ReplyDeleteIts nice to see writings with such title, but very objective.
Those I see from faithfreedom, for instance, are very subjective, misleading facts, as well as cheating (the deleted many of my rebuttals, so I got sick of it).
In my view about conflicts, as a moslem, islam has many restrictions about war. And I do mean A LOT.
The instructions in the Qur'an which is said to suggest war, are not just misinterpreted, I say. I have found many indications of the following:
1. HALF interpreting. Many moslems are known of doing it, such as hitting wives, for instance.
They read only as far as "you may hit your wives". But chose to forget the longer part "after three warnings, must not hit the face, MUST NOT HURT" etc.
And this is due to their personal interest.
If you ask me, it is common for a human being to take what they want and leave the rest.
PS: If I say common, I dont mean right though...
2. People with the nature of number 1, plus very desperate AND stupid people, are serving under one "server".
To be honest. I dont think that whoever was behind 9/11, actually is someone who believed in Jihad or islam. Its just someone with a hidden motive, who uses these jihad believers.
Such as Negara Islam Indonesia (you know what it is, right?). Their followers are very extreme in their own mislead and misinformed way.
But their BOSSES, I do believe, are no more than very smart thieves who found a very potential market.
This might be able to be used with other terrorism as well. Which is why they actually needed to have brainwashing methods.
If you ask me, possibly the real war that may be waged in islam, is the ones which Palestinian terrorists are doing inside Palestine, Gaza, Jerusalem.
Well, they are invaded. They cant just take that laying down, could they?
So then if we actually see islam as a whole, and see all needed reference, it is a religion of peace.
I mean, "you may kill a rabbit" can always be taken as:
"you may kill!!!"
two weeks later...
"...a rabbit!"
Cheers..
Fajri
Jogja Debating Forum
(ldc_founder1@yahoo.com)
Agree with Fajri !!!
ReplyDelete100 % !!!
Islam is not a religion of war!
Islam is a religion of PEACE!!!
Islam is a Very Peaceful Religion!!!
Thank U :)
-filzah-
fajri, it s nice to know that people like realize how room for interpretation is dangerous. I am simply saying that no text in the world is perfect including Al-Quran. Amendment is needed. The text cant accomodate today's complicated social order and norms. For example, if were the drafter of Al-Quran, i will write, you may not hit your wives, unless you hit her face when she does not carry out her obligations. or you may not marry more than one wife, unless you can act fairly to those wives. Or i d suggest to eliminate the "because" so there is no way to interpret polygamy from Quran
ReplyDeleteThese drafts suggest that the acts are principally not allowed, unless the person (conducting polygamy) can prove it that he can act fairly to all his wives.
better drafting of Al-Quran, isnt it?
Seriously, this blog is very good man, four thumbs up!!!
ReplyDeleteBefore I answer, I'd like to ask...
YOu were an indonesian debater, were you? Where were you from?
Around what years were you active debating?
Just wondering whether we've met before...
Here we go...
Amending text of the Al-Quran, I disagree. Because it is already perfect.
Maybe I wasnt clear enough in my previous post. Is not misinterpretation, but total ignorance as if the rules werent there.
Before I continue, lets quote yourself first:
"you may not hit your wives, unless you hit her face when she does not carry out her obligations"
Doesnt this mean that you CAN hit your wife IF it is IN THE FACE?
Well, thats not what Islam wants.
Anyhoo
1. Corporal punnishment in Islam: Okay, but NO face, NO hurt, AFTER 3 warnings.
2. Polygamy in islam: Okay, but MUST be fair.
3. War in islam: Okay, but NO kill children/woman/unarmed/surrendered people, must be defensive or preemptive with reasonable lead.
These requirements ALREADY exist in islamic law. Perfect already.
But then there are people who are SO stupid and ignorant, and only takes the law in halves.
There you go. The laws are perfect, but not the humans.
They did not misinterpret, but they IGNORED.
An other issue from you, that Al-Quran is not able to follow the dynamics of social norms.
I disagree.
If the reasons were as mentioned above, we have it answered already havent we?
But many actually say so, so Id better explain.
People are likely to say so because, which I cant blame, their knowledge is woefully incomplete.
Islam is not just about a bunch of radical people with sarung and jilbab, worshiping God merely based on an ancient text.
a. Not to mention this text is extraordinary. Point a verse you think is irrelevant. I am ready to answer.
As ready as showing you some miracles, not the pushed ones, but real miracles logic can accept.
b. Islamic law is not just that.
Al-Quran serves just like a constitution (but not amendable though).
Then we have two types of laws.
Ibadah (vertical: creature to creator): fixed, perfect, and not changable.
and Muamalah (horizontal: humans to fellow creatures, including fellow humans)
This last one IS dynamic.
There would be a group of Ulama with certain qualifications in a board (in indonesia we hav MUI for instance).
These people will see new issues in the society which have never appeared before, then create new laws.
Which of course is adapting to the social change, as well as consistent with the Qur'an and Hadist.
This is just like our other laws, where "law lives and dies with the people" (JEremy Bentham, is it?)
But binds the society to rules too since "law is a tool of social engineering" (Roscoe Pound, is it?)
Sorry, Im a law student like you, but a very much worse one with 2,something GPA T_T T_T T_T T_T
The difference is, that it is based on a superordinary source, which came from Allah SWT Himself.
No law is better, if you ask me.
If there are any bad results from these laws, it means that it has been partially or fully ignored.
Cheers...
PS: I still cant get over it. This blog is SO good and SOO objective. Great work, mate =)
Fajri
Jogja Debating Forum
Dear Fajri i am really flattered by your compliment. Yes i was a debater, but it s been a long time that i dont. I recall joining IVED and ALSA. IVED in 2006 and ALSA in 2005. I ll get back to your argument tomorrow. I have 2 exams and 3 papers to finish. Thanks anyway for replying and reading my blog. A lot of interesting issues are coming up. Probably i will also send some to KOMPAS and Jakarta Post
ReplyDeleteWoowww, then we might have actually met without knowing each other!
ReplyDeleteIn ALSA 2005, I was still in highschool, but I was there in ALSA as Highschool adjudicator.
In IVED 2006, UAD, you MIGHT notice me..
I was Adjudicator, but most noticable, I was finalist of Masters Round. I was 1st speaker Opening Government
Who were you debating for?
Clearly not UI or STAN then...
Okay, Im looking forward to your reply =)
PS: I bookmarked your blog.. But in a WARNET.. How stupid can I get >,<
nope im not from UI or stan,i represented USU by then, but now i am in UI. Yup, still working on the reply, terribly busy right now.. but will get back to your argument certainly
ReplyDeleteyo harjo, i'd like to give some comments on this post, in particular i try to address your view on the "vengeful and destructive" nature of God from Christian perspectives. you can take a look at my blog:
ReplyDeletehttp://joardi.blogspot.com/2009/04/on-nature-of-god-and-sins.html
actually i was really surprised with the discussion going on here, this is a very good discussion on topics which perhaps not so many people would like to raise. yeah it's good if we can hear views from some other perspectives.
johannes, i m terribly sorry for being able to reply to you. i promise i will... but not within this week. hectic schedule
ReplyDeleteI recommend you to read an article in my blog (http://bloganders.blogspot.com/2009/08/proof-of-existence-of-intelligent-and.html). It contains a formal logical proof, based on scientific premises, that proves the existence of an Intelligent and Perfect Creator of this universe (i.e. the Prime Cause of this universe (the cause of Big Bang)); and it also proves that His instructions are found in Torah, and that His purpose of humankind is for us to practise those Instructions in Torah.
ReplyDeleteThe Creator in Tan''kh is angry when people breach His Instructions (His Torah). It is nothing strange with that. He also punishes some people in Tan''kh whom have committed moral crimes and does not repent. It is a moral action to punish people whom have commited a crime.
All the best,
Anders Branderud